#302 | Facing PTSD with Shoulder Dystocia at Home Birth

I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Podcast. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

My name is Allison Angelini, and this is the birth story of my second child, Herb Angelini, leading up to Herb's birth, I had actually gone through a trauma. My daughter had gotten injured. She fell on a piece of glass and severed her arm, and she was 17 months old. And this is important, because I feel like a lot of what kind of happened with my son's birth had a lot to do with my mental state at the time. So I lead with that just to say that I I was really kind of struggling. I had I had been through something that was hard, and I was working to heal it, but I I had this really, really overwhelming feeling that a challenge was coming my way, another challenge was coming my way, and I actually had a dream when I was about 35 weeks pregnant With herb, that I had my baby and that he I didn't know it was a he, but I felt strongly that it was a he, that he was born and that he was white and limp, and I started mouth to mouth resuscitation in my dream, and I woke up not knowing if he lived or not. And so I had that dream around 35 weeks, and then his birth really was very similar to that. And in the dream, he had black hair, and when he was born, he had black hair. So I had kind of this eerie premonition that I realized it was a premonition after the birth.

So Allison, it's not the point of your story, but your daughter, did she lose her arm? She did not lose her arm, but she severed her ulnar nerve, and she had to have two surgeries. She was 17 months old, my first my first baby. She was drinking water out of a yo play, yogurt glass outside. We had been camping, and she fell with the glass, and the glass broke and went into her arm. And it was just this freak accident that was very traumatic. She was essentially bleeding out, and I had to hold pressure on her arm. And it was just a very, very deep gash that sent us to the ER that sent us into surgeries, and then she had ulnar nerve palsy for a number of months where she was unable to lengthen these two fingers. So it was just very it felt like a living nightmare. My baby looked like reaching up for me and unable to straighten her fingers, and I had a lot of I was really blaming myself. I had given her the glass, you know, I just, I was dealing with all of those feelings and just having a really hard time mentally. But we actually were kind of on the mend. She, she got about, I would say most of her function back in her hand by the time my son was conceived, and that was kind of a an unknown. It was a wait and see. We'll see if she can straighten her fingers again. So that was really stressful, and but she she did. I think if that injury had to happen to her, that was the best time for it to happen, because she was so young and her nerve was able to regain function because she was so young and so vital. So it was just a really beautiful healing story, actually. And in February, after her accident happened in September of 2021 and in February of 2022 she and I were on the beach with my parents and in Florida, and I looked at her, and I felt like, Oh, you're all alone. You need a sibling to play with. And I went home after that trip and conceived herb, and then had a very uneventful pregnancy with Herb. It was, it was a healthy pregnancy. Just other than my mental state, I was dealing with a lot of kind of external stressors, so it was the injury, but then also some other stuff in my life too that was really challenging for me to deal with interpersonal challenges within my extended family, and it was, it was just becoming more and more difficult for me to bear.

Herb, Allison, did you, did you feel that you were experiencing PTSD after that experience, and did that contribute to any type of postpartum or even during pregnancy. You can also have depression and anxiety in pregnancy as a result of PTSD, but it's very commonly correlated with postpartum depression and anxiety. Yeah, I do. I think I've been experiencing that i. I think I had postpartum anxiety after my first birth. I was counting my daughter's breaths in the nighttime, you know? I think I was just dealing with new mom anxiety, and then that injury happened for her when she was 17 months old. And then I had the other stress that I mentioned as well. And I kind of was in this mindset where I was, like, waiting for the next shoe to drop, like I felt like, for some reason, it was like, I felt like I deserved the challenges that I was facing. And I just wasn't a really having a really hard time in my own mind. And yes, I would say that it was a bit of PTSD, for certain, because that injury was very traumatic, and the hospitals just all that we went through in that time. And then the other stress too, on top of it was just a lot for me. So, you know, herbs, herbs pregnancy. He was a healthy boy. It was a healthy pregnancy other than my mind. So I guess, not so healthy in that I was really struggling mentally and struggling with anxiety. And so leading up to his birth, I had that dream, and I just had this overwhelming feeling that something was coming my way, another challenge was coming my way, and I went into labor on November 3 in the morning. About 4:30am I woke up. I could hear the highway. We live on a highway, and I could hear the trucks moving down the highway. So that kind of told me that the day was on its way, and I knew that the baby was coming. I could feel him coming. And my contractions were irregular, but I knew what they were. And I I remember breathing in my daughter, and I was, she was in between my husband and I in bed, and I just, I remember thinking, Oh, this is, this is the last time it'll just be the three of us. And I got up and I had some breakfast, and I brought my birth ball into the room that I had prepared for birthing in my home, and I started laboring, and I actually was able to talk with my midwife last night and get kind of more accurate picture of the time frame. So around 8:20am, I I called my midwife and, or I guess it was around, actually, 9am I called my midwife, and I was having a regular contraction, still at that time. And then around 10:11am, I was having strong contractions. And at 1055 I was having them regularly, and I let my midwife know that it was time to come. And I can't remember if I knew this at the time, but she was about an hour and a half away. And I felt very strongly, this baby is coming fast. And I had this feeling, I'm not sure if my birth team is going to get here in time. And luckily, my midwife's assistant arrived, and she watched me go through a couple of contractions. My husband was out on the porch trying to sort out the birth pool, and I remember her sticking her head out the screen door and saying to him, we don't have time get back in here. The baby's going to be here any moment. And I kept going through contractions. And I was I was really having a hard time with the contractions. I with my daughter. I really enjoyed that labor and that birth. I There was never a moment where I felt like I couldn't do it. It felt very i i felt like i was in labor land, like I I felt all of those hormones. And you know that outer body experience with that labor and with this one, I feel like it was happening so quickly that maybe my body didn't have time to get into that space, or the hormones didn't have time to get online. So I was just mentally struggling through the contractions. It was almost like I didn't want to be in labor. I was just having a hard time being in labor. I remember I said to my husband, I never want to do this again. I mean, I wonder how many women have said that to their husbands. Many, many. Yeah. So I said that classic thing to him, and my midwife's assistant was there, and then at some point, my midwife arrived, I guess she she arrived right around 12:30pm and pushing was irresistible for me at that time, and she asked if she could check me, and I said yes. And she, at that time, discovered a cervical lip, and so we could feel his head. I believe that she could feel his head at that time, and I think that I could too, although I can't remember exactly, but I. Yes, at that time, she discovered a cervical lip. And then --

May I interrupt, I would like one of you to explain what a cervical lip is, because we'll have a lot of viewers and listeners who have never heard that before. So let's explain and tell them what it is.

I can explain that for you. Okay, so as the cervix is opening to complete dilation, which is typically called 10 centimeters. Sometimes the last bit of cervix on the front side remains, which you can also call nine and a half centimeters. But centimeters don't really matter. It's really just the absence of the cervix is when you are fully dilated and ready to push. Now the anterior lip, or cervical lip, has gotten a bad rap. Most people think of it as a stuck place or an abnormal variation in dilation, and actually is not. Rachel Reed has an excellent blog article on this that explains the I can't remember what the title of the article is, but basically it says that the cervical the anterior cervical lip, is a normal part of the labor process. It's just the last stage of the cervix disappearing.

Yeah, so, and I talked with my midwife about this last night, and she said she she doesn't see them often, and it's usually because she doesn't check that she feels like she doesn't see them and so but for whatever reason, she we, you know, we did this check, and she then was trying to hold the lip aside as I was going through contractions. And when I wrote down my birth story, I wrote, at this point, this, in my mind, was the start of a home birth version of the cascade of interventions, because this was very difficult for me to go through her holding the lip aside. It was just excruciating for me to have that. And as I was going through contractions, to have her there kind of helping me. But she said that usually she can just kind of hold it aside, and the baby's head will then pop through, and that's it. But this, that's not what was happening for herb. She was holding it aside, and then he was going back in and so we kind of went through this moment where he kept getting stuck behind this, this bit of cervical lip, and I was just even, I was mentally spiraling before this, and then I just started mental mentally spiraling even more, just struggling with the sensations and struggling with the thought, oh, there's something wrong. So I think because I was really not mentally fortified going into this. This was so difficult for me to think, oh, something's wrong, like he's --

How do you remember about how long you were experiencing that anterior lip? Well, he was born at 2pm and so this was around 1230 so I'm not exactly sure.

Yeah. Who knows? Maybe it was a half an hour. Maybe it was 45 minutes, depends on how long you were actually pushing. But yeah, this is a lot of the part of the problem with thinking of anterior or cervical lips as a abnormal thing to happen in labor. And I had one in my first labor too, and I remember the exact same thing, midwife holding the cervix back. And sometimes that works really well, and sometimes it's really just a big source of stress. So the real question is, do we do we even need to worry about cervical lips? Should we even be trying to manage them? Should we just keep our hands out of there, most likely, yes, yeah, no, they're there. And you know what? How would your experience have been different if you didn't even know that it was ever there, right? And these are all questions that I had afterwards. And luckily, I had the same midwife with my third birth, and she was really receptive to all of this, receptive to my experience of the story, receptive to me not wanting any checks in my third labor. And I know I'm not going to go into that story, but I'm just really grateful to her for that receptivity and for the just the space to be able to process this with her, and for her to be just so receptive. So I'm sure she's grateful that you trusted her again to do it differently.

Yeah, I wouldn't trust Yeah, I couldn't imagine anybody else attending my births. I have, I have the most incredible relationship with my midwife. I love her so much. So this was something that we went through that we've been able to talk about a lot, and Herb's birth was traumatic for us both. So we've, we've had a really, we had a really nice time last night, even just kind of reviewing it all and and talking about it, and all that she learned, and all that that I learned as well. But so we went through. I. A number of contractions with that, trying to resolve the lip. At some point, I was on the birthing stool, and I remember my husband was behind me, and he had his my husband is very, very steady guy. He's He's very grounded in my labors, almost annoyingly. So sometimes I don't I mean that in a funny way. Every single quality has its annoying slant. I don't know how it happens.

Elaborate. Elaborate on that slant, the women who have the neat husbands like, Yeah, but he's too neat, and he gets fastidious about but there's always that slant where the good quality has its little edge. What's this?

So he's tell us more. Um, he's, he's just so confident.

You down him for being so confident.

I guess it's an Sorry. Go ahead. Trisha, how do you what would you wish? What would you have wished for him to do other than um, I think study, I think I wouldn't change it. I just think my experience of it after the fact having, you know, looking at the pictures, you know, he's he just, he's so proud, he's so happy, he's so grateful to be welcoming His children. And I'm like, Do you have any idea what I was going you know, it's just a funny feeling. I wouldn't change it. Though, women do feel that way. Sometimes, they sometimes feel go through something, even when their children are out, or their toddlers and they're going through things. And sometimes those guys are so stable they see each other differently, like she's all anxious and worked up about things, and then she wants to be like, Don't you realize how serious or how risky this was, and you want them to take a little of the burden, is often, right? You want them to take a little bit of the burden of the stress off. You like, stop being so easy going. Stop being so steady. Here I am, like, freaking out. Take a little of it. You know, take a little bit of it for me.

Yeah, I don't know what it is exactly, but it's just a funny observation that I've noticed within my own self looking back at photos. But, yeah, there's this picture of him, and he's kind of nestled in my neck, and I remember he he was chewing Calamus root. We, we are herbalists, and use herbs a lot, and so he was chewing this plant that it's a very calming plant. It's something that you can kind of chew on to help your nervous system. And I remember the smell of it was so I could not handle it, and I couldn't vocalize that. I couldn't handle it, so I just was like turning my head from him so that I couldn't smell his breath in this moment on the birthing stool. So that was a moment that really stuck out to me after the fact, and he knew in the next labor not to chew anything or have anything smelly on him, whatsoever. So that was a funny moment. And at some point we got off of the birthing stool and made it, made our way back to the bedroom, to the bed that I had birthed my daughter on, and I got into the MC Roberts position. I didn't know the name of this position until last night, my midwife told me, but that's how my daughter was born, actually. And so we tried that just to think maybe he'll maybe that's how my pelvis works. Maybe he'll get down below where he's that's it. So we'll, we'll explain that a little bit because, of course, we're always telling Moms, don't, you know, don't be on your back in labor unless, of course, no position that feels right to you. If it feels right to you, it probably is right to you. It's just the problem is that women are forced onto their backs right? However, your midwife obviously was worried already about a shoulder dystocia if she instructed you to get in the bed and get on your back the McGraw, it's position is a first line position when you think that the shoulders are stuck, where you do get on your back and you pull the knees back, sometimes it even involves super pubic Pressure, where somebody's actually pressing down firmly on the shoulders via the abdomen to try to get them under the pelvic bone. Yes, yes, yeah, I think she was. She mentioned that, you know, they knew that he was a big baby. They knew the possibility was there. They knew he was having a hard time getting down. One more question. They knew he was a big baby because of their palpation skills, feeling the abdomen, not by ultrasound, not by ultrasound, yeah, just her palpated. Her palpating. She felt that he was a big baby. And I did. I mean, I was large, like in in, in all of my pregnancies, I just, you know, I've, I've been the part the woman that gets all the comments, do you have twins in there? Do you, I mean, somebody even said triplets one time, be sure you don't have three in there. And I could go on and on about those comments that women get. But you know, that's been my experience with pregnancy. I've carried my babies very far out in front of me. And, you know, from behind, I don't look pregnant, but so that's the comment I've gotten in all of my pregnancies. And so we knew that he was likely a big boy or a big baby. And I think she did, I think she did anticipate Shoulder Dystocia at that time.

So we were, I was in based on what, based on his side, or probably she, maybe she thought that because she felt like he was a big baby, that he this, you know, he could present with shoulder dystocia in addition to the lip as well. I'm not sure I'd

also, it could have been how the progress, the way he was coming down as as you were pushing, because at this point you were already pushing.

Yes, I was pushing. She was probably sensing that the pushing was going slower than expected, yeah, based on your first birth, or, you know, the fact that it was second baby in her, you know, her midwife intuition also was exactly, yeah, and she actually had in quotes in my chart. I said, at some point nothing is happening. So I think I've just felt like he's not coming down nothing is happening. So I don't know exactly how many times we changed positions, but I was in the MC Roberts and then they got me onto hands and knees. At one point, I remember her instructing me to put to get into like a runner start position. And I just remember holding on to my husband in desperation at this point, like I was just hanging on to him. He was holding me up. And I think I went from front to back, or from the McRoberts to the to the runner start once before his head was born. And so what happened was he was anterior, and then he turned posterior, which was what was what was so unusual. So, I guess before his head was born, I was doing my own perineal support. I was and I remember that moment, and feeling really empowered in that moment, because I could feel his head. They told me his hair is black, and I was, you know, I felt that joy of that moment, oh, he's coming. He's coming. But I just couldn't get him to move down. And I guess at some point she realized he's stuck. This is Shoulder Dystocia. They then my experience at that point. I don't know exactly how many times I went from back to hands and knees, from back to hands and knees, but I at that point, felt like I was essentially, kind of handled by my husband and the midwives. They were pushing, they were communicating with each other and manipulating my body. And I started to hear prayers being spoken aloud. Lord Jesus released this baby, and so I could hear the severity of the situation in their voices. At that point, I feel like I left the room, like I dissociated. It was excruciating, because there were hands inside of me there. You know, they were trying to get him out. His head was out. She at some point, saw his cord. Saw that it was pulsing. It was not compressed. It was full of blood. She said she had a moment when she saw that cord where she felt okay, I can breathe. I need to think. I need to figure out what's going on. And so then she put her hands inside me and was trying to figure out where his shoulders were. And so she discovered that his right arm was behind his back, and so his shoulders were instead of being forward, Oh, I'm so sorry. My phone, instead of being flexed, they were What's the opposite? They were splayed, if that makes sense. So she was able to trace his arm and get it out in front of him, and then at the same time, or around the same time, my midwife's assistant, pushed up on my belly, or pulled up on my belly. And so the combination of those things, her getting his arm free, and my midwife assistant lifting up on my belly, she was able to the herb, was able to be born. And so, so yes, usually when they release that other arm, the lower arm, so it's usually the top shoulder that's stuck behind the pubic bone. There's various kinds of dystocias, but the most common one is the top shoulder is stuck on the pubic bone. And if they can actually deliver the lower arm, then it creates space for that top shoulder to move down, and then the lifting of your belly and pressing down, and they're actually pushing down on the baby's shoulder, gets it under the bone, and then they can be born.

Yeah. Yeah. So he was born, then at that time, Allison and how much was your dream in your mind? When this was all going on? Were you dreading the outcome of that dream actually happening, or were you not thinking about it? I was not thinking about it at this time. Yeah, it wasn't until afterwards that I kind of put it together, because I, yeah, I wasn't really thinking about it. You know, I had the overwhelming feeling going into labor, like just kind of this doom. I don't know how to describe it. This is overwhelming feeling of doom, which I did not experience in my other pregnancies and labors. So it was just really interesting mother's intuition, I guess. But my So, yeah, when he was born, he was white and limp, and they had the resuscitation tray ready, and so he was lying in front of me on the bed, on the tray, and I thought, I thought my baby had died. I had a moment where I was like, not sure that he was alive. I had a moment before he even was born. Is my baby going to die? And I so I had those thoughts going and in my mind, and I was really scared, and they started resuscitating him, and so at the first minute, his Apgar was two at one minute, and his cord was very short. He had no tone, no color, no movement, but his heart rate was 150 so that was such a saving grace for him. And I feel so grateful that the cord was still intact at in this time that he, you know, was being resuscitated, the cord was still pulsing to him the whole time.

And so can you imagine that sometimes these babies have their cords cut before their full body is born, that especially if it's around the neck, they Yeah, that was standard practice. They cut the cord, get the baby out. Can you imagine?

I know, and I've thought about that so much, and I don't know if that's standard practice still, but I've thought so many times. I'm so grateful that I was at home and that his cord was intact, and not only that, but also that I was right next to him as he was being resuscitated. I was whispering into his ear, come to me, baby. I want you, baby. I want you to be here with me, like I was talking to him. I was right there with him. So I've just, you know, sometimes, being a home birthing Mother, I've received doubt from other people, you know, people casting their own doubt or fear onto me about giving birth at home. And I'm just so glad I was at home like I'm just so glad that I was at home with the incredibly capable midwives that I was with with my husband. You know, that we were able to just be in that situation together, in peace like in as much peace as possible. So it was just such a blessing. So he was resuscitated with a bag valve mask for newborns, and at well, right after he was born, my husband proudly declared, it's a boy. So despite all the you know, the fact that he was white and limp and seemingly lifeless, he had so much joy that his son was here. So it was just a really beautiful moment. And he wasn't breathing by one minute, but by five minutes, his Apgar was seven, and by 10 minutes, his Apgar was nine, so he took about eight minutes to come around. And I didn't actually know that until last night. I had no idea how much time it was. My midwife shared that with me last night, and I think at five minutes, I said, Can I hold him? Can I pick him up? Can I hold him? And they were glad to let me do that, and because he had started to pink up, and she just continued to give him air while I was holding him. And she and I both feel that that is what really brought him into his body, was him being on my chest and with me and and then he was here, and he was bruised and scraped, and we were all just we all took Rescue Remedy. Every single one of us took Rescue Remedy at that moment, we rubbed a little bit on his temples. And then he was here, and it was it was so scary there for a moment. And I'm so grateful that we had the outcome that we had. And how long midwife lasts. Do you have any idea how long that all lasted?

About one point, how long? About eight minutes?

Eight and until he was well after he was born, right? That was when the Apgar got normal. But how long was he actually stuck?

Oh, you know, I don't know that detail. I think about so at 141 I could feel his head, and he was born at 2pm Okay, so I do know I wrote this down last night at 141 I saw his head and I felt him. That's when I said, Nothing is happening. Julia, my midwife's assistant, suggested an abdominal lift. I did my own perineal support, and his head was born into my hand. They moved me to my hands and my knees. Had me get into the runner, start to shift my pelvis. Leslie had her hands inside of me, discovered plenty of space in the posterior, but then discovered the right arm behind his back. That's when she then saw the cord, and she knew that she had time to think about it. When she got his arm out, he was then born, and his shoulders were bowed back to his back, and then so 19, yeah, that that would be a time very long. That's very long for shoulder dystocia. Typically, a shoulder dystocia is called the it called a shoulder dystocia if the interval of time between the head and the shoulders is more than 60 seconds, right? Which is a little that's, that's fast. You know, we don't know how babies take longer than that, but even in, you know, eight to 10 minutes between is extremely long.

Uh huh, yeah. So at 141 I could see his head. It wasn't quite born yet, but, yeah, we don't know what time, how long it took from the time that you saw his head to his head actually being fully out? Yeah, that's okay, yeah, but you don't need to know that.

Yeah, it was somewhere in there, yeah. So she, she felt like it was kind of a an atypical shoulder dystocia, but a shoulder dystocia nonetheless. And my midwife Actually, she's she's attended 1200 births, and she has had one loss, and it was due to a shoulder dystocia. And so she had extensive training because of that, and probably prior to that too, but also because of that. So I felt like she really knew how to handle that situation, and my midwife's assistant as well. They were such a great team. And afterwards, my midwife's assistant, after I had made it from my bath to my bed. She sat down with my husband and I and her the new baby, and she encouraged us to orient towards what did happen? He's alive. He's in your arms. He's healthy, he's well. And that was so helpful for me, because I feel like especially at that time in my life, when I was really struggling with negative thinking that was something that I really held on to, and it's and something I continue to hold on to. So I think if I were to share a takeaway, it would be that mental health is so important going into labor if there's something unresolved, or if there's something that's really challenging you in your life, help is important. Get help, have support.

How would you say that played a role in your birth? This sounds like something that was purely in the physical realm. So that's interesting, that you say the takeaway is mental health. How does that connect for you.

I feel like I was just so tense. I feel like I was so tense prior, and then I tensed up even more with the lip and the management of the lip, and I just wonder, had I been so tense? Would he have gotten stuck? Those are just my wonderings.

Well, either way, you know that you experienced a lot of anxiety and that that sensation of an impending doom is anxiety, right? It is. Sometimes it's intuition too, but it's often anxiety that that creates that feeling, and it would make sense based on the PTSD that you had from your daughter's experience. Yeah. So if you could do it again, or you could give a recommendation to other mothers who have had a traumatic experience, even if that was their prior birth experience, what would you tell them to do?

I would I would say, Get really clear on what you're okay with in labor. For me, I think I didn't really think about that prior to this birth. I wasn't thinking about if I wanted to be checked or not. I wasn't thinking. About, you know, the types of interventions that might be offered to me in a home birth situation. So I think being really clear on those things is helpful, because for me, when I'm in the in the moment of labor and somebody's asking me if I want something, I'm more likely, or at least, then I was more likely to be like, Sure, yes, you know. And I think this can go, you know, this can be applied to any birth setting and scenario. It's important that you're really clear on what it is that you want and and what interventions you're okay with. And checking is an intervention, and right? Maybe not knowing that, maybe not knowing the anterior lip would have changed things. Maybe not, who knows? We don't know. Yeah, it's you'll I'll never know. But I do wonder. I do wonder about just that information, if how it would have gone had I not known that information. Because, like I said, and this is on me, but I really mentally spiraled from that point on in this labor, and I was already struggling to manage it. So it was very difficult, actually, because we went through not only that challenging birth, but then we went through some challenging health issues after the fact, and we are still recovering from all of that. So it continues. I've had another child since then. The birth was very redemptive, and he's incredibly healthy, so that is incredibly healing for me.

How did you feel in your third pregnancy? Did you have a similar experience as in your second pregnancy? Emotionally?

Yeah, so she, she felt like it was kind of a an atypical shoulder dystocia, but a shoulder dystocia nonetheless, and when, right before my daughter got hurt. So it's just kind of, we're trying to deal with it as best we can, and it's definitely still something that that causes us stress and that is hard to manage at times. But Perry, my third child, his pregnancy, was very healthy. I tended to my mental health by doing EMDR, and I I really tried to address a lot of the trauma that I had been through with my daughter's injury and also with the birth of herb and the other trauma within my family as well.

Were you fearful of a shoulder dystocia with your third I was, yeah, I really was, I could. I felt like I knew it was a boy this time. This was the first time I knew the gender of my child, and I felt like he was big. I struggled mentally in the labor with the stuck fear I really did. At one point I was begging my husband to take me to the hospital for a C section, just because I felt like I couldn't do it. And honestly, by the I am not an incredibly religious person, but I'm working on it, and I really do feel like, by the grace of God, Perry was born just right he, I remember there was this moment where his head emerged, and my midwife said, and he's turning, and he's coming, and it was just, I can't, I mean, I just get chills to this day. You know? It was just such a healing moment to know that, oh, my, my body is trustworthy and and I can birth a baby, and here he is, and he's fine. He's all I wanted out of that birth was for him to have tone and to scream immediately and be pink. And I got that, and I'm just so grateful.

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