#279 | Leveling The Playing Field in Parenthood with Dan Doty of Fatherhood Ready

Parenthood and fatherhood is in truly a historical moment of evolution. If you look at the difference from one generation of my dad's generation to my generation of fathers, it's astounding, on like, a humanity level, right? Like to go like, as long as humans have been around, it is changing right now. We've never, maybe never played football in our lives, and then baby comes and we're like on the field in an NFL game having never been to a practice before. We don't have much modeling.

I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Podcast. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

Hi, my name is Dan Dody. I am one of the cofounders of Fatherhood Ready. I am a father of three. I have my oldest son is eight, my middle son is five, and my daughter, Wilderness is two, and I am excited to be part of helping expecting dads really wake up and engage fully early on in the process, so that they can bring all they Have to their family and support their partners and support their kids and support themselves to thrive. Great.

Well, before we get into our conversation, Dan, why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into this work.

Yeah, I grew up in the Midwest. North Dakota is where I grew up and I had I found myself really enjoying wilderness experiences from from a young age. And so after I graduated college, I lived in Panama, in Central America, and I needed a job, and I went on Craigslist, and I found an ad for a wilderness therapy guide. And what that meant is I quickly flew to Utah, and then I found myself guiding therapeutically oriented programs for adolescent boys, and this became my passion, something of an obsession, and it really I found myself stumbling into my calling. What that really meant is I got to get to know these young men on a very simple, direct one on one level, and I got to know who they were and what was going on in their world. And I also got to I had the fortune to work with them and their fathers and father son experiences. And those experiences really were what hooked me for life, in both seeing the issues in the world with boys mental health, adolescent mental health, men's mental health. But being out in the woods and in the desert and the mountains with these fathers and sons, I got to experience what happens when the walls between a father and son come down and hearts open fully, and I feel like there is something very, very important for everybody in really paying attention to to that image, or that moment of a man's guard coming down and his care for others coming all the way forward. And those, yeah, those experiences I had with, you know, young men, 18 year old thugs, being cradled by their father with tears streaming down their faces, sharing how much they actually loved each other, how proud they were of each other, and how much they recognized how much of a distance had been between them. That has fueled my, my whole career, which since then has spanned a lot of things, but being an inner city high school teacher, making TV, adventure TV, and then becoming the founder of men's work organization called everyman, which has taught men skills, emotional skills, the capacity to be vulnerable, listening skills, and just Overall, I would say, helping men finding their their deeper humanity. And now I've have switched to focus just with fathers, and particularly narrowed in with expected dads, because I feel like it's a it's a moment, it's a moment in a man's life where an immense amount of leverage can come, where an immense amount of transformation occurs. And I feel if we can support expecting dads to really get it as it's starting to happen, the impact that they can make on their families is really massive. What do you see as the biggest impediment, or the biggest thing, holding new fathers back from jump? In in the same way that a mother might obviously, you know, mothers are very primed and it's very instinctual, and they've been carrying this baby for nine months, and those that bonding and that instinct is usually very natural, but you've been through this now as a father, and you've seen what happens many, many years down the line, when bonding doesn't happen as easily between a father and their child, whether it's a son or a daughter. So tell us a little bit about what what fathers can do from day one or even before their baby is born, to start facilitating this bonding more easily.

Yeah. Well, I think the biggest impediment is the the lives that we've already lived, our own childhoods, the societal norms of, you know, how, how our own fathers engaged in the world. I think about fatherhood for guys as sort of like, we've never, maybe never played football in our lives, and then baby comes, and we're like on the field in an NFL game having never been to a practice before. And so there's just I remember before I became a dad, I realized I had never held a baby before. I realized a few years before I met my wife, that I had this burning want and desire to become a father, but had literally never spent any time with kids under five, right? Like since, since I was a small child. So I feel like there's this, there's just this sort of learned, societal, familial, experiential world where it's just not on men's radar, right? And it was enough on my radar that I explicitly took some steps, like I moved in with some friends in New York City into a shared apartment. They had two kids, and they had one of the kids in the apartment where we were living together, and I was there and it it was such a jarring experience in a positive way, to sort of choose to put myself in situations where I was around parents and around babies, but that is just so far outside the norm. And what I found is that, like dads, do have this primal, I don't know, gut level desire and to engage and nurture and be connected, but we're just not, we're just not enculturated to do that. We're just not like trained to do that. Men. Men kind of sit in the back seat from connection, and we don't have much modeling. I guess. I think men are actually untrained. Would that be the right word? You know, it is within them, and society has really taught them that that level of connection, emotion, vulnerability, that's not their role, that that is that, that that is not manly.

I think the other thing I see, that I always think about is, well, first of all, I'll tell you, I run a Postpartum Support Group every week, so I spend a lot of time with women, all of whom I think, though, I think society would assume these women are complaining about their husbands. But the truth is, they usually feel the need to insist how amazing their husbands are. I actually have a policy once in a while, and I say you're not allowed to call your husbands amazing, just like let like, let's stop the need to say He's really amazing. But dot, dot, dot. Here's how I'm hurt. Here's how I'm let down. We don't need to, we don't need to convince everyone that we didn't marry poorly, like we married good men. We this is the presumption here. We married really good men, and they want to do right by us, and we just need to fill the gap what is missing. And what I have observed in all these years is when a man in this generation changes a diaper goes so far as to wear his baby in a sling. I'll never forget I took a picture of my husband wearing our baby in a sling while vacuuming. And you know you have these Mo and then you know, if you catch a man dreamily looking at his baby and kissing his baby, our hearts just fill with adoration for this man. And we go on as a society, the parents, his parents, his in laws, everyone's like, Oh my God, he's such a wonderful father. What a wonderful father. But the reality for the woman who's aware that he's a good man. The reality for her is typically like 23 and a half hours a day of real disappointment, of being fatigued, filled with resentment, and on top of it, hearing what an amazing husband she has when he's a good man. But she is, in fact the amazing one. She is in fact the one who every for whom every aspect of her life changed on a dime, and she stepped immediately up and into it. And there's no showing anyone when they're visiting how good of a mother she is, because there's no avoiding it. She's constantly put she might forget to eat because she's taking care of the baby. Where is the gap between these men who really want to do well, they really want to. Good men, and they don't know what it looks like beyond changing a diaper and maybe putting a baby in a sling every now and then. What can you show these men? Where's the gap? What are they missing?

Yeah, I can show them exactly, because as hard as I have tried, personally, to step up and be all the way in, it is embarrassing to share how long and hard of a journey it's been for me, and it's really helpful to have dialog with with people like you to just be honest here, because you know, it's 100% true in my marriage, in our family, like I showed up ready to go, like I'm here and but also when, when we first had kids, you know, books like fair play I wasn't aware of at the time, and, you know, everything that we've learned about, you know, sharing all of the loads equally at this point. It's even though I would have been all the way my wife and I would have been all the way embracing of that. We hadn't, we hadn't come across any of that information yet, and so it's still really embarrassing to say, though, that the default to my wife is still more common than not, right? And here we are, eight years into this. And one thing, which I'm not sharing as an excuse, but I do think, I think it's something to consider here is that the I think that parenthood and fatherhood is in truly a historical moment of evolution. If you look at the difference from one generation of my dad's generation to my generation of fathers, the true explosion of change in what we're here for and what we're to do is it's astounding, unlike a humanity level, right like to go like, as long as humans have been around, it is changing right now. And I think part of what it is is it's like we're talking about identity, like deep, fundamental identity, and what would that gap that we're talking to get even closer in and look at that gap, it's I see the gap I am more than open and willing, but it's still just like this sludgy process of like, naturally not taking stepping up to lead or trusting myself to do so. Or here's I'll just share the thing that's maybe most embarrassing is the defensiveness that still comes up when put to the task. And I like, I've been through this, how many times, so I guess what I'm saying here is I want to help figure this out all the way. I don't. I'm curious. Yeah, I would. I would completely agree, as you know, a lactation consultant who works with moms and babies every day, I am constantly impressed and amazed by the fathers showing up for those appointments, the responsibilities that they just automatically take on in those appointments, whether it's just getting getting something for her, holding the baby, changing the baby. It's just because I'm always so surprised by how natural it is for them. And I hear exactly what you're saying about this gap, and I think we women, mothers have a role in that too. I'm thinking back to when I was raising my babies and how hard it would have been for me to even allow my husband to play on an even playing field with parental responsibilities. It's so ingrained in me to be that mother, to hold the baby, to tend to the baby, to do everything for the baby, and my husband was one of those fathers who wore the baby, changed the baby, I breastfed, so I was the only one ever feeding the baby. But to think about having the the playing field literally be 50/50 --

-- but that's not the goal, right? That's is that what we're talking about, would that mean? Well, trying to close the gap you're moving, oh, that is, I think, the other way we can talk about closing the gap that I was envisioning is, I'm just picturing a young dad. He's a good man, he's a loving husband. And I just pictured this man saying to Dan, you know what? I change diapers. I help out a lot. She's so mad at me. She's always so mad at me. That's the gap I'm talking about, where men are just like, What the heck? Because I am, I am like a superstar compared to my own father, and they still can't understand why she's so filled with resentment. I think it's hard for men to wrap their minds around it until it's almost a little too late. And this is one of the questions we have. It's like, how do we we believe in what we've done so far is, like, when we can get dads to pay attention and to, like, jump in the ring, like in the expecting dad phase, like you can kind of head off a lot of strife and a lot of stress, and. Really make an impact. But it is. It is currently hard to maybe sort of prove the point or make the case upfront, like, Hey, man, something huge is coming, right? Since it's not physiological, we're not carrying the baby, we're still, you know, doing our thing and going to work. And this change is happening. But I don't know, the questions that we're really leaning into is like, how do we make it visceral? How do we, how do we, how do we get this in the dude's body? How do we make this land and make an impact on him? It is, it is a very functional way of communicating. I mean, I think communicating through men's skulls into their actual, you know, perceptive brain is, it's a, it's a unique, I think, human issue or problem, right? But, but dudes will listen to other dudes, right? Like, if you get a man's trust and you can, like, have the conversation, it seems to move the needle. So, yeah, I feel like where I would begin with those men if I had that opportunity to sit with men, and it just came to me while you were speaking, but it's something I have I know I've thought about before. I think the starting point can be relatively simple. I think I would say to these men, you know what it's like to love your wife. You know what it's like to love her while you observe her nurturing and loving and caring for this baby. How do you take that model and nurture and love and care for her? Because it will go a long way. If she's sitting down exhausted, when the baby finally gets to bed and you sit down and start rubbing her feet, she will fill with so much love and affection and gratitude. I mean, my husband used to walk by and start rubbing my shoulders, and I can't believe how much they used to hurt every time he touched my shoulders. I just wanted to cry with gratitude and relief, because I was breastfeeding, and I didn't realize how much pain I was constantly in, in my neck and shoulder area. And he so often just walked over and would ask me a question or talk to me about what we were doing for dinner, but he would start rubbing my shoulders. And when you think, like I was willing to do 95% of everything, if I had those waves of oh my gosh, you see me, you see me, and you're giving me love, and it didn't have to, I didn't, I wouldn't have thought, well, I changed 12 diapers today, and you changed one today. I just thought, oh my gosh, thank you. Like I used to sit there and say, Thank you, thank you. It was so simple. And I think for some men, it can start with, did you eat? Let me make lunch. I'm home. I'm making all the meals today. Yes, it's work. Like, yes, you're going to have very few needs met, as she's having none of her needs met. But I think it can be an easy approach, rather than figure out what to do in stepping into your fatherhood, I'm with you. I think it's internal. I think it comes naturally, especially as babies get older, but just keep loving her, like look at what she's doing and do things for her. What do you what do you think about that? Is that missing the mark? Is it? No, I don't think so. No, I don't think you're missing at all. I mean, and it strikes me personally as very relevant too, yeah, what I hear there too, and I could go back to dozens of conversations with my wife over the past eight years, and it's just, yeah, her wanting to be celebrated and to be seen, and to not feel alone in it, and to have a an actual, you know, full partner again, not just on the on the labor and the tasks, but but to be and I guess I'll just do my wife would be happy for me to share, but she, she, she'll often say, she's like, gosh, I just see that you don't get it all the way. I know you're trying to get it, and I want you to get it, and we're talking about it. And I'm like, God. Like, how? Yeah, what is this? What is this like, getting it part, you know. And I guess this, this is maybe slightly off center, but I do want to say this, that one thing that really means a lot to me is the times that my wife has gone on a trip or on vacation or taking care of herself, and I get to actually step into the primary care role, even if it's for three days. I think the longest I've ever done is eight, seven or eight days or something like that. It really, I think maybe that's one of the ways practically, in which, like, okay, like, and again, that's, that's, that's, that's not nearly the whole thing, but it's enough of a sense, and it also brings the gifts of understanding her and her role and what she does, what it takes, but it also comes with this amazing deepening of the connection to my children, which is, I don't know, it just feels like one small way to sort of move together.

Well, you're touching on a really important point, and that point that you're that you're tapping into when you talk about taking on the primary role is the mental load of motherhood. And there is, I think, probably the biggest source of resentment for mothers, is what we call the mother load. And this is what men don't understand, because they are. Living it until they take on that primary role. Once you take on that primary role, you realize all the unseen things that a mother is thinking about, it isn't the physical task. And what I was saying 5050 I wasn't talking about 50% dad changes diapers and 50% mom changes diapers. I'm not talking about the physical things. It is that that shared responsibility and most of all, the mental effort that it takes to raise a child, and that's thinking about so many un acknowledged pieces of caring for a child like it's easier to give examples when I get a little bit older, but you know, making sure every child has underwear that fits the right shoes, that the, you know, the the correct forms are signed. We could rattle off, I'm sure, a million things, but the research that we know when mothers are always researching everything I was going to finish, I was going to finish, what I last said when I was I kind of alluded like I understand it's not the whole thing, because what I was thinking of was that's just one week of like a small window of life, but it's not like the year of doctor's appointments. It's I recognize that, but again, I feel like it's in that direction. I had Erica Joseph, who wrote the book The sharing the mother lode. Not sure if you're familiar with I had her on the on the podcast recently. And yeah, I think that it's really helpful to hear, to hear you guys share about this. Because honestly, as we go about this, I do I wish we were like, I wish I had the answer at this point. But I feel like the best I can offer is like, hey, we want to get after this. And we can't wait until we have it perfect but, but we want to, we want to move things in the right direction, right?

One thing I think would help. It's exactly what Trisha was getting at that the mother load, like it's truly endless. And you know, you can just go on thinking of dozens and dozen things, like, every time our children outgrow another set of clothes, we're the ones sitting on the floor going through the clothes. What are we keeping? Refolding, giving away, donating, managing their relationships, you know, making sure that they have what they need, as far as their social life, their athletic life, their academic life, their health. It's every level. Yeah, it's like in a marriage. I think it's so helpful when we have some kind of division of labor, because when the mother owns it all, she still can bear some resentment having to say, Can you clean the kitchen tonight? So what I think is a really good piece of advice, because I've been doing this with women for so long, is let there be something, or many things, he owns. Because this is a joke. I say this is the way I phrase it, just because it sounds so funny. As little communication between the two of you as possible is the goal. That's a joke, meaning this, imagine if you never had to say to your husband again, can you clean up the kitchen after dinner? Imagine if he always does without a conversation. So it doesn't feel like you have to ask and await his mood or his response, and he doesn't have to tell you if he'll do it now, if he'll do it later. What if it's just something he does? I had a mom in my postpartum group who was had a very difficult lifestyle. She was actually in our last postpartum roundtable a couple years ago in May of 2022 she's great. And her husband was a police officer. He worked crazy hours. He switched back to night shifts, back to day shifts. She had three kids under two twins in there, and she Oh, my God. She went through a hard time. And I remember we talked about it a lot. And there came the day where she I said, What's the biggest point of your stress during the day? If you had to pick one thing? And she said, looking at the kitchen every time I walk through and walk by, I feel like I'm suffocating in in plates and bottles. I cannot even bear to walk into my kitchen. So we talked about it, and she ended up asking him, because he was living with this resentful wife, and no one wants that. It was painful for him. She said, Will you just be responsible for the kitchen? It got to the point where he would come home from work, no matter when he came home at 7am or 11pm whatever his shift, he rolled up his sleeves, played some music and cleaned the kitchen. The love she felt for him on a daily basis, and they never again argued about the kitchen. And I have to say, I imagine he felt pretty great about himself, because his expectations are that he's going to go home and do it so he couldn't feel disappointed every time she asked, because he was mentally prepared. Okay, I'm going to go home. I'll do the kitchen, and then I'll whatever. I'll relax, I'll play with the kids. But that's why I say as little communication as possible, to get out of this pattern of and she's asking for something else, and she and she ends up feeling the resentment. Why do I even have to ask you can clearly see the kitchen as a mess, or the lunch needs to be folded, or whatever it is, right?

When I first. Read fair play, and we got the cards and did that exercise with my wife like it was. It was contentious at first, but it was a revelation for me. What is the exercise? The so there's a deck of cards with the fair play book that that lists out every single household chore, everything it takes to raise a family, and you literally go through and you divvy them out between partners, between my wife and I, and it's very, very illuminating, right? It's very illuminating. And also they have a system in the Fair Play system, where it's, if you have the card, then you are responsible. You basically negotiate, and you say, okay, here, here are my responsibilities. Her your responsibilities. And there are standards of excellence for each or standard, like, there's a standard for what it actually looks like to have the kitchen, like, fully taken care of. There's a standard for what it looks like to have the doctors that it's lines up, right? And so it's all really, it's, it's basically taking project management tools from from the organizational world, and applying them to a household, just so that there's actual clarity, there's specificity, and it's really helpful. And we've come a long way in our household, you know, based on this, right? And so, yeah, for example, that that kitchen situation, that's, that's pretty much the situation in our in our home, like I clean the kitchen most every day. I was, I was actually yesterday, I took the kids to target to get some sandals for for a vacation, and I recognized that, you know, I was like, should I call? Should I not call? You know, does my wife want there to be straps on these sandals, or should we just get flip flops? Is this okay? And I, like, spent like, 20 minutes thinking, like, I don't want to bugger, I don't want to, like, put that extra on her. I get right. Well, right, exactly. So position, it's a very tough position for men, yeah.

So, so anyway, it wasn't stressful on her, and, you know, whatever it was, but yeah, there's, there's very much, I think, that this is such a gnarly, emotionally charged and also complex, you know, practical issue and problem that, anyway, the the the tools that we found, like, like I said, e rod scheme, fair play, and then Erica, Joe said that her mother load book, she has all of these sheets that literally just like, line it out, and that's been really helpful for me as a dad to have something to refer to. I think we also have to acknowledge where, like, biology comes into this. And I've mentioned this before, and Cynthia, I don't know if you totally agree with me on this, but I do believe men and women have different brains. They do have different brains. It's not a belief, it's a fact. And there is some, there's some, you know, biology and evolution to this that men are now trying to sort of accelerate the evolutionary process of their mind, just like our minds are not really capable of keeping up in today's modern tech world, because our brains are still, you know, back in time, they haven't evolved. I think that is similar to the male brain and the adjustment the male brain is trying to now take on in taking some of this on more instinctively and intuitively, which is why you were describing it as like, how do I make this a visceral feeling? And it's not, but it is for women, because we have evolutionarily, biologically, been doing it for God knows how long, and it's why we're more wired for anxiety than we are our brains are. So I agree with all of that. Of course, there's no avoiding that. I think, I think our suffering can come from trying to ignore that fact that men are women so different, are so different, and that's why it doesn't have to be equal. It doesn't have to be equal. It just has. It does just have to be fair and cooperative. And ultimately, she wants to be seen and heard. Dan, I have to laugh thinking about however it is in your household, because you're going to be married to the woman who says, oh, and you're Dan Dody out there telling all the other men how it's going to be her expectations. Oh, that's real, because you're teaching.

It's like I thought you're the one out there teaching all the men how to be so you've got to deal with your own self imposed high expectations and public ones.

Oh, 100% and I mean, that's why I'm maybe even over, maybe over emphasizing a little bit my embarrassment of the truth, but I think it's really important, right? Because, yeah, this, like, I agree, like, there is an evolution, sort of, like a, like, a fundamental evolution happening here. And my hope, honestly, I think this is a generational problem, meaning that I don't think this is a two year fix. I think, you know, I have my two boys and my daughter, I can maybe almost easily see a reality where they grow up and have children and are not dealing with this type of issue in such an acute way that my wife and I are, I think that we're getting ahead of it enough, and we're we're. You know, talking about things that I think that my boys will grow up and be in a different position than I was when I first had kids and got married, right? And that's my hope and prayer anyway. But yeah, I think it is, I don't know. I don't want to let my let myself or men, off the hook at all. I think, I think this is our time to really step up and grow and do what we need. And I think there's also this, yeah, I don't know, Grace maybe is the only word I can come up with that, that, like, how do we do this together? I don't know. I'm trying to think of another, like, analogy. Like, what's another example? Maybe at work, it's like somebody is asked to to quickly step up into a leadership position. And they've never been in a leadership position in their whole life, and they have a lot of work to get there, but maybe they have a I don't know. There's no There's no perfect analogy I can think of. They need a mentor. Well, exactly. I think men have to. I think men would change their lives, in their household and their marriages, because before I continue, it's so important because 20 to 25 years from this point of having young children, she is much more likely to divorce him. And women, unfortunately, whether we like it or not, are really good at holding on to resentment and remembering details of our lives. And men get over things quickly. God bless them. You know, they're ready to connect again. They're ready to have sex again quickly. They're ready to bounce back. You know, they brush things off. And for women, you know, if you give them the wrong glance or speak in the wrong tone early in the morning, she's going to still be feeling pretty cold or hurt at night if she felt unacknowledged. Like that's the complexity and that that is the the the fascinating and odd thing about putting a male and female together, they are so different, and so much love is required between them simply by virtue of the fact that one is male and one is female, and they need to learn to figure each other out. But one thing I think men can do, it is so powerful and it's so simple, is be willing to ask certain questions. For example, imagine what would happen if every man said to that exhausted, overworked postpartum Mom, if he went over to her and said, What is it you need most right now, tell me what you need. And she might say, I just need a hug, or I just need sleep, or I just need the laundry folded. But imagine being willing to receive any answer she says, or even going so far as to say if you could change one thing about me, but this takes a really powerful person, but imagine saying to your partner, if you could change one and I've said that my husband and I remember once went out to lunch, and we kind of had a very it was actually kind of a fun conversation with a little bit of humor, but like I've said to him, like, if you could change one thing about me, what Would that be? I was just simply curious. I was just curious. And what if we're just curious, and thereby making them much happier to be married to us, much happier to have a long life together in our marriage?

Trish, I'd like to take that one step further.

Please do.

I would love not to be asked, What do you need right now, but to simply be brought something that my partner knows I need right now. It's like, it's like where it's like, when my when my husband, when we need groceries, and he says, Well, just send me a list. That's the Motherland I'm talking about. I don't want to put the list together for you. I want you to know what is in the fridge and what is in the pantry and what what is, what we're running short on, and what the kids want, and just bring it home. That's where I need you to be.

That's where I went to was i because I've been in that position and I have, yeah, been given feedback exactly like that. Like, not that that's a bad question. That's a great question. But really, yeah, but it's not just like, what if? What if? What if? The answer to the question is that she's still feeling resentful because she didn't have a great experience with her in laws when they visited last time, and she wants to say, I need you to see how much I do for your family. Like, there's so much more that can come of it. I don't mean, what chore do you need, because I'm with you. There's that great scene in the movie The breakup, where he's doing the dishes, and she's like, she's like, it's not that I want you to do the dishes. I want you to want to do the dishes. There's this great scene in that movie, and from his perspective, he's like, who wants to do the dishes he doesn't get that she's saying, I want you to want to do the that's what you're saying. Totally agree, but I'm saying sometimes we can ask, maybe I didn't have a good example, but sometimes we can unpeel whatever pain or resentment she's carrying that goes beyond the chores in the house at the moment. The reason she's a little resentful, a little bit closing drawers a little loudly. She's being a little cold. How do you get her to say, What? What? Like, what's going on? Tell me what's the heaviest thing on your mind right now, it just might not be the chores. It might be something else. It might be like, I don't know, who knows?

It's better. It's communication. It's, I mean, this is. The root of it, curiosity, I think, is a really important point to always be, you know, trying to be curious about what's going on, what's missing, what's needed, and communication. Yeah, 100%

I feel like one way that we're having success and that I want to explore further is, I think that got a lot of men, don't I guess, like, I think we need some sort of a vision forward here. Like, like, what does this look like when it works? What does it look like when a man really steps up? What does it look like when his partner feels met and seen or fulfilled? Right? Because I just like, there's not that many examples, and I think a community like, what we're building is one place to get them, and I think that's really helpful. But, you know, there's two things I think fundamentally that that men are struggling with, I would say global scale, right? Not just dads, but just men in general. And it's a generalized lack of connection to other people, right? Like, like, a lot of distance between them and pretty much everyone, and then lack of purpose, right? Those are the two big things. When you look at declining men's mental health and suicide rates and all of these things, lack of connection and lack of purpose just sort of leads men on the sort of distant, distant lands hard to reach, right? And what I think is really exciting is that, more than anything else I've ever come across, fatherhood creates immense possibility for both fast right, like I've been in the in the work of helping men open, literally, soften and open their hearts. That's what I've been doing. I've been doing with with my adult life. Nothing does that like holding your child, right? Nothing does that by looking in the eyes. Nothing does that by being with your partner as they labor and give birth like there is literally nothing that does that as powerfully as becoming a dad. And I believe that men, most, a lot of the dads I work with, really, actually don't know what love feels like in their body. It's to that level, that level of human connection, is really foreign for most men. And it's sort of like trained out of us, you know. And the the purpose part, too, I think is a big deal, because I think one of the ways that we might close this gap is to start to create a narrative of, like, our our purpose as men, isn't out in the world as much anymore. It isn't out in this winning the game. It is, it is in the family. It is in the household. It is like, how do we create a picture of winning by, you know, create these, these knowings and hearings and seeings of what intact children and intact families and supported wives look like Like to me. Because what really does, tend seems to be motivating a lot of dads, is like, the opportunity here is massive, right? The opportunity to actually have an impact on the world, to our kids and to our home and to our partners. How do we get dads to really step up? I think we're pretty blind. I think we're kind of feeling around in the dark here a lot.

We've talked about this on the podcast before. Men really could benefit from more community in early fatherhood. So it's a very isolating time for mothers, and it's really hard for mothers to even find community and connection. But it's really hard for fathers. It's almost non existent for fathers, and if you just have a few dads who you can meet with on a weekly basis, hiking groups, sports groups, you know, meeting up at happy hour, whatever it is, and just shoot the shit about Dad stuff, and talk about what you're doing that's working in the home, and talk about what you're struggling with, and practice having a little bit more of that vulnerability and connection that could go a long way.

It goes a huge amount of But can I just, can I say one thing there that there's a caveat there too, where the most often the level of conversation, though, or depth of conversation in golfing buddies and hiking buddies. It's helpful. It's very good. But I do think there's, like, an intentional layer that that juices the whole thing to a whole new level, right? So, and that's what we've built, and that's what we're doing with fatherhood, ready, is having that community which, which I think, like the hiking buddies, is almost a byproduct of, right? Because, like, building friendships for adult men is really kind of an embarrassing business in its whole, in its own right, but I think this is the time, you know, if a man's ever going to push through his discomfort and come together with some other guys for support, that's the time. And I think that guys can hear that. It makes sense. I would love to finish here just by sharing, uh. Gratitude for having me on for this conversation. I feel that I'm gaining a lot from from your perspective and just having a conversation, I feel, I feel like I'm leaving with, I don't know, like, like, I did some really good, important conversational research, right? Like I and we need to know what's true for you. We need to know your opinion. We need to know your feedback, and we're just doing our best to take that in and really, really move forward with it the best that we can.

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It sounds to me like men and women need to just be having these conversations more in general, right? Yeah, it's, it's a very underserved population. Would you say? Would you say that our hunch, and what we've heard from people is that early stage moms, one of their biggest, if not biggest stresses, concerns, is Dad's lack of stepping up. Does that, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. Usually, the first couple of weeks, she and the family members are blown away by what an amazing father. He is because he's holding his baby and he's saying, Let me change the baby. Fast forward two months, six months, one year. No, it's not and he's still and he's not wrong, that he's really great, because he's so much better than his dad was. No, he's not wrong. He's like, are you got to be kidding me? Like, I step up more than any guy I know, you know. And she's just like, then, why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? So it's it's truly such a problem, and I have so much compassion for couples. Because, first of all, no one knows how freaking hard it is going to be having a baby. It's not the glorious romantic we made this experience. We thought it's so and you love them more than you thought you would. And the love isn't joyful, the love is like anguish. The love is worry. The love is just like a scary kind of love. But there's so much missing each other. Every woman says, and I believe every woman is right when she says he doesn't have a clue. And I say, we can't fault them for that, but I feel for them both so much, because no one's needs are getting met at all. Like she is totally depleted, and in order for him to support her, he has to deplete himself a lot. So now who's holding this couple up? Like, do they have anyone in their community? Some have no one. Some couples have no one, just the two of them. So it's tough.