#143 | Radical Boundaries in Birth with Tranquility by Hehe

I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist. And I'm Trisha Ludwig, certified nurse midwife and international board certified lactation consultant. And this is the Down To Birth Podcast. Childbirth is something we're made to do. But how do we have our safest and most satisfying experience in today's medical culture? Let's dispel the myths and get down to birth.

HeHe Stewart, we are so happy to have you back at the down to birth show. We had a great discussion with you last year for Episode 99, where we talked about easier pushing and less tearing. And today we're having you back as a guest host to talk about boundaries. So how would you like to kick off that discussion?I'm Cynthia Overgard, owner of HypnoBirthing of Connecticut, childbirth advocate and postpartum support specialist.

Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Again, I appreciate it. This crowd is always fun to join. And the conversations are always fruitful. And I always walk away feeling inspired and like refreshed even though we just came back from the New Year. It feels odd the time for another refresher. So thanks for having me back. Yeah, boundaries, we use boundaries to keep us safe and respected. The decision there though, is what is a hard boundary versus what is a soft boundary that you can be flexible on. So a hard boundary for me is another adult is not going to yell at me. We can speak in tones that are respectful, and I understand raising your voice, there's a time and a place. But as far as another adult yelling at me, that's a hard boundary. For me, my flexibility on that boundary is I also get to decide what humans are worthy or close enough to me that have the ability to raise their voice at me if they get passionate in a conversation or we're having an intense conversation. Not every human is going to get the same flexibility as other people in your life. And that's okay. But that is how you define boundaries and how you use them. Now, when we're talking about them in a medical setting, we want to think about finding a provider that respects the same boundaries that you also hold important and has the capability to be flexible with the boundaries that you need or have flexibility around. And that is why it's so important to do your homework and your due diligence of finding the right provider because does that person respect your boundaries? Do they understand them? And are they able to give you the flexibility that you need or want in your birth? If the answer's no, your current provider? The answer to that is usually change providers because there is a provider out there that's willing to respect your boundaries, understand your boundaries and be flexible on the ones that you need and want flexibility on.

I think one of the problems we run into is that we assume that when we go into a medical, the assumption is that when we enter these relationships with a health care provider, we're going to be treated with respect. And I think sometimes when we get in that position, and we're not, we don't even realize maybe that our boundaries being crossed. We think that oh, the provider just knows better than me for this is just they're the authority in this situation.

I think where it gets a little confusing for people to is that when you go to your prenatal caregiver, they see you naked. And normally when someone sees us naked, we have very, very intimate boundaries with those people. It's almost like it's an illusion, because well, if they see me naked, then we have very intimate boundaries. And the challenge there is that in our really intimate relationships. We can speak more bluntly to people we might raise our voices with people, we might say things that are crossing a little bit of boundaries, and it's more forgivable. It's more navigable. But when we're in that that relationship with with a relationship with a provider, those emotional boundaries have to be very professional and wide and distant despite that, physically, they're not and by the way, it's it's it's unilateral. It's that one sees the other one naked, it there's already an inherent imbalance. And we can feel less than we can feel smaller. We can feel like well, they can cross our boundaries, but I can't cross theirs. And that's what I think we have to be really careful of in that relationship. That actually they have to respect us more because we're The client, if what if we had to pick if there were a unilateral imbalance it should tip the other way? No, but does it? Know

does it and I think something that's really important, Cynthia, that you pointed out were two things. So first, draw the difference, or conclusion that your provider and your partner may be the same, because they both see you pregnant, which I've never heard that, that I've never heard that before, you must think that your partner has an equal part in the relationship of a romantic relationship, they are pouring into your cup just as much as you're pouring into theirs. And so it brings that dynamic much more to an even playing field, you talked about, it's got to be tip to the patient, of course, you are a paying customer, you get to decide who gives you care. Your provider isn't pouring into your cup, it's just a one way street, there is no exchange of energy, there's an exchange of money, but there's no exchange of energy and love and refreshing your cup. And so if you're out there thinking, well, since they see me naked, you know, they just get to kind of cross my boundaries are have the same flexibility and boundaries, like my partner does, absolutely not very different relationship. Um, you do need to think about yourself at the top of the totem pole. Because your birth story is is like a one and done deal. We have one time to get this right. And so it requires us to have very strong boundaries going in, if you don't know how to pick up on whether your boundaries are being crossed or not. I would really recommend you sit down and think about do I know what my boundaries are? And now how do I know if they're being crossed? Right? If I go into my prenatal appointment, and I start to feel uncomfortable, or achy or disrespected, that's a boundary being crossed. If I leave, and I feel like, well, I just spent 15 minutes with that person. And I don't think they heard a single thing that came out of my mouth. That is a boundary that is being cross if you leave and feel like oh, goodness, I really did not want that cervical check today. But I just didn't feel like I said, I could say no, I don't know if that's okay, hey, that's not okay. That's absolutely 100% Not okay, you should be able to say yes or no to any procedure. These are boundaries that are being crossed. I think reflecting on how your provider makes you feel both in the moment after you leave their office and then projecting what you think they might feel like in labor. That's a really great way to evaluate whether your boundaries are being crossed or not.

So here's an interesting, I think, pretty good, subtle example of a boundary being crossed by a client of mine, who completed session four of my class. And that's where we go through the whole birth plan in depth. And invariably, couples leave with a lot of questions that they're ready to ask their providers. And this woman went into her prenatal with a nice organized pad of paper and all her questions on it, and was really looking forward to that appointment. She was sitting there with her provider, and started asking questions, and the provider, took the pad out of her hands and said, let me see these and basically grabbed it from her and started scanning the page for self and answering the ones that she felt like answering, but the fact that she took it out of her hands, I just feel like that screams lack of respect. I cannot believe anyone would do that. Um, I think that's a really good subtle example. If you have a moment where you're like, wait a second, was that okay? And you can talk yourself into thinking it's okay, okay. They just wanted to be efficient. They just took they saw, I was sharing everything on the page. It wasn't my journal. It wasn't private. But you're gonna feel something you're gonna feel like, wait, I beg when you feel that little I beg your pardon? You know, it's like, I mean, you can leave with that feeling like was that? Okay?

I think those are the little little red flags that we talk about all the time. I mean, one of the most important red flags is, how did you feel when you left your appointment? How did you feel in that moment? Did you get that little like, sinking feeling in your chest like, you know, that just didn't feel right. And don't ignore those. You don't have to know exactly which boundary was crossed, you don't have to, in that, you know, I mean, if you want to be really good with understanding yourself, you'll dig a little deeper and try to figure out what it's coming, what's coming up in you and why you don't like that. But for the most part, you just need to be able to acknowledge that feeling. And pay attention to it and don't just write it off. Because they grow. Right, those red flags get redder and redder and redder until you're in the moment of birth, and it's not the pad of paper that's being ripped out of your hand. It's the scissors to your perineum without your permission.

So more so I want you to pay attention to where the control is in that room. You had the control. You were asking the questions, you have the pen and paper, you were in control of the conversation. And your provider literally ripped the control away from you, like literally in real life right before your eyes, they stole the control from you literally, that I'm shaking, even thinking about that happening, I have to think that personally, I think I would in the prenatal right there, I would end it, I would say thank you very much. I have just seen something that I do not want to keep going forward with. I appreciate your time, I think this brain was done. And you can hear I'm like a little nervous right now saying that, it's hard to say that, but you have to, can you imagine that not being a pen and paper, but instead being your baby ripped from your bodies, or the scissors the scissors on your perineum, or making you put your feet in stirrups when all you know you need is to get on hands and knees. You guys this is huge. It's really, really big. I do want to touch on something about one of you had mentioned. And they're going to try and normalize it and make it you know, seem like it's not a big deal. That is abuse that is outside of the walls of a hospital. That's like negligent abuse, it's mental and emotional abuse to try and normalize something that goes directly against someone's safety or their human rights. That's an incredible offense. So if you feel like your boundaries are being crossed, and then your doctor is normalizing them, we see this so often with a sweep, where you've agreed and consented to late prenatal late pregnancy, cervical exam, and then while they're down there, they simply just inform you like Oh, I was on there just did a sweep. So we can like hopefully kick things off. That is assault. That's not okay, you consented to one procedure. And while they were down there, they took it upon themselves without your permission to go forth with another procedure. That is unacceptable. And for them to try and normalize that is absolutely unacceptable to that too is a reason to fire your provider or at the very least have a conversation. And now we've circled back to hard boundaries. It should be a hard boundary with every single person that no one does something to your body without your permission, especially when it has to do with such a sensitive part of your body.

I heard of a midwife from doula who was present and from the client at a later time but mid labor the mom was in the semi reclining position, pushing her baby out working on that stage of labor. And the midwife took the woman's knees and shook them a little bit instead of relax your legs these are these legs are mine right now relax them. And I was just thinking, I'm these legs are mine right now. Like can you get your ego out of this birth, please, this has nothing to do with you. But you're in that moment like you're naked, your your legs are parted their face facing you. They're shaking your legs. It's a woman saying it to a woman, a midwife saying it to a woman in labor, with witnesses with a doula with like, where do these people who can speak that way to a laboring woman? Where do they learn that this is appropriate. And if this is what they're like, in their professional relationships, they must be a nightmare to be within their personal relationships, which we haven't gotten into yet. But that also matters because our family members and our friends and our colleagues at work can give us opinions about pregnancy and birth that we're not asking for either. And sometimes they really set women backwards in their pregnancies when that happens. I appreciated that you said you got nervous even thinking about it. Yeah, that's how I appreciated that you said that because so many times women listen to us. And they're like, ah, but I'm not. You know, it's easy to, for people to think it's easier for us to do it just because we can have this conversation. It is hard, but it's necessary, no matter how hard it is.

And unfortunately, a lot of women are in a position where they don't have a lot of choices, love providers, and then they're you know, they're concerned about creating a worst dynamic with the one midwife in town.

Okay, but if your one midwife in town is not a midwife, and she's a midwife, she's not good. What do you do? What do women do?

What I would say is, can you find it within yourself to be so radically authentic that you really don't need anyone's permission to birth and so it doesn't matter who shows up to your birth even if it is the most boundary crossing provider You are so solid in what you believe in what you know you want and you've done the most education that you possibly can. So even if things go off course you still know what you can do, what your options are, what your boundaries are, how you want that to unfold. If it doesn't unfold like that, how else do you want it to unfold? You're so radically in control, that the minute someone even looks like they're coming in your space to violate a boundary, either you or your doula or your partner are right there to say absolutely not back up. We did not call you into this space and that that's kind of the attitude that you have to go into. If I don't call you in. I don't need you. Because the people who get the honor of coming into your birth space without being called in are people who have proven themselves that are respectful, can be quiet can be observers, they progressively and productively and positively put into the birth space. The minute you start taking from the first face, you lose your right to come in uninvited.

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Yeah, so if you are like a mega nerd like me, you're gonna want to follow follow Dr. Robert Pearl. And I don't mean on social media, I mean, follow his his work. He writes books, and he's a medical doctor too. But he writes books about the US medical system. And it is fascinating to hear how this attitude of we know best has come about. But it did partly come from training. But if you really think about medicine, they used to be public servants, like real public servants, they would do house calls, they knew everybody in their town in their city, they delivered all of those babies, and then all of those people's babies and then all of those people's grandbabies, right? Like, they literally knew everybody, when they were handing over their practice, that person would practice with them for years and years and years. And we had this respectful patient first model. Interestingly enough, insurances what eventually changed that when insurance started to get into this provider started to have to play this game on how to get paid how to scale and then there was a lot of money to be made in that. And then it has just, it's just really snowballed into something that's out of control. And I don't think any player in the game right now has any control over the system at all. We are just in a system where it's passed down from generation to generation on hospital floors. It is taught to them in medical schools. It is even it goes as deep as the people who do try and change the system. Dr. Nathan Riley comes to mind. The people who do try and practice in a way that is not critical mainstream, they are ostracized, they are blackballed. They are totally removed and ridiculed from you know the group They are made out to be this crazy person, when in all actuality, they aren't, they just see the world going in a different way. And it's unfortunate because it really does stop a lot of people from getting care that is adequate and aligned and respectful and compassionate in exactly what they're looking for.

I think to add to your point about insurance liability has put a tremendous amount of pressure on providers to demand that their patients behave a certain way comply with certain things, do certain tests just to cover their ass and their asses at risk? So it's, it's unfortunate because the system of liability, the legal system, and the way that we can destroy a provider's life over something that, you know, they maybe didn't want to do. But did it because of my ability.

I can't help but have a cynical slant on that same point, though, because for many providers, the whole liability argument became their big grand excuse to abuse women. And you're I mean, of course, you're absolutely right. All of that is true. All of that is true. But there are providers who use that, like, I'll be honest litigation as a reason for this. And the first time I heard it was before I was a professional, I was pregnant, at the very beginning of my whole story, and I told my birth story, my son's birth story in Episode 10. But a really interesting part of it was when I asked my provider why her C section rate was 50%. And I was a low risk mom, she was a, she wasn't a high risk doctor in the first place. And you may recall from my story, she said, Well, I don't like if the mother is too old or too young or too heavy or too thin, or if the baby arrives early, or if the baby arrives late, or if the baby measure is smaller, the baby measures larger, she has multiple rules, or gestational diabetes, or placenta previa, or failure to progress. And she listed and she said, but I'll be honest, litigation plays a big role. And I say to her, in OB, you know, I, I mean, I said, the irony is, you're far more likely to experience an adverse outcome. Even as a provider who has no emotional attachment to these human beings, you're far more likely to have an adverse scenario and be sued if you're performing unnecessary cesarean sections. So we can ignore the fact that she also would be done with the birth in 20 minutes and make triple the income. So it's just the whole system of conflicts of interest is such a mess.

Interesting point you said about being far more likely to be sued if they perform an unnecessary cesarean section?

Well, if they get an adverse outcome and unnecessary certain sections will be correlated with those except they almost never consider this seryan. Unnecessary.

I know, the judges tend to always rule with the doctor's regard. That's why they always go to them, because they only know it ever get in trouble if they cut.

That's right. And then and they're rewarded for doing so financially and in their scheduling. So that's really that's where we're getting to the truth of what's wrong with American maternity systems.

Can we talk about just something random that dropped into my head, taking my my co host role very seriously here? It just reminded me of when hospitals have waitlist for inductions. And people are all over here like oh, no, I better get on the waitlist, or I'm not going to get my induction. Sister, if you got waitlist for reduction, we got a problem. And also the best thing you can do is miss out on an under medically necessary induction. If you don't have a medical reason. Let's leave it be.

Are they faking? Illness to be? Are they're really weightless? Are they manipulating the situation to create a supply and demand problem? Or what do you think?

Definitely. And I think it's a scheduling thing, too. I think that the more that you make people fearful, it's a sales tactic. It's exactly what people do in sales. Yeah, you create a waitlist, and it creates this shortage, why people think that they need to be on this list, but

that is so. So it's also a way to manage manage their practice much more conveniently with you have 20 people do in the last week of February and you know, when they're all scheduled for their induction, you can manage your prenatal appointments scheduled better, you can manage the call schedule better you can manage the postpartum. it all lines up when it's predictable. Unfortunately, birth is not predictable. And we need to be able to practice in an unpredictable environment.

And now we've circled back to the control. Remember when the providers stole the pad and pin from the person in the prenatal she literally stole the control. They're going to do the same thing at the end of pregnancy and you've got to know how to look out for it. You've got to have, you know, this beer goggles that you practice drag driving with no talk about drunk driving, have your boundary goggles on, but these don't practice your boundaries, they filter out when your boundaries are being crossed, go in with your boundaries goggles on. And if they start to flash red, then you know your boundary is being crossed. If you start to feel achy, if you start to feel like, wow, I don't feel like they're really hearing me, I don't really want this procedure. I don't want to do that, oh, I really do want to burn up, right. But they're saying I have to do it on my back. These are going to be things that make your boundary goggles go off.

We lose our common sense sometimes. And Paul, you're telling me about this weightless situation. I was picturing a little like, cartoon in my head of a woman who's doing March sitting there in the prenatal in February and the doctors looking at the scheduling going, You know what, I don't think we're going to be able to get this baby out of you until June. Like that brief moment any woman would think, Oh my gosh, they can't schedule the induction, my baby's not going to come out. We buy into this nonsense, this nonsense that they get the baby out. And of course women are walking in, in labor all day long all night long every day. And then they they accommodate. It's a head game. It's a head game.

I think it's worth noting that if the induction schedule is quote unquote, full, completely full, and you come in and you are your baby are in danger, and they need to get your baby out. They will I say exact don't get your baby out.

Let's talk about boundaries in our interpersonal relationships. In pregnancy postpartum, it comes up all the time. And Trisha and I are asked questions all the time in our monthly q&a episodes about that. When women are pregnant, they get a lot of unsolicited advice from colleagues from family members who are anxious. Like for example, let's say a woman planning a VBAC. Usually the family who loves and adores her, doesn't know the first thing about feedback. And they're scaring her and rocking her world a lot. And any first time mom is going to get advice at work from every woman who's ever had a baby. I mean, I got terrible advice from people who cared about me at work, who had just they were perpetuating all the misinformation in society. And I had a client I was on with yesterday on the phone, she's in my Postpartum Support Group, she just got over a very mild case of COVID. And, and her mom is making this really hard for her and sending her text messages that are saying things like, Are you breathing, and she doesn't know how to create a boundary with her own mom, because her mom in many respects is the closest person to her as mothers are. And she's calling me sobbing because she's saying my mother is driving me crazy. And I'm I'm a ball of nerves. I feel I think I'm gonna die. And she's said, I have no symptoms, but all I'm picturing is dying. How to manage that?

Well, your friend needs to just turn your phone off. First, not take her mother's texts or calls anymore, which is hard. That's step one. That's step one.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I would follow that up with personally. So I think it's there's room to talk about people who are okay with confrontation and people who are not okay with confrontation. I am okay with confrontation. I do not expect that people who are not okay with confrontation to react or respond the same way that I will in these situations. If I were planning a VBAC, and the people around me were uneducated, you've got a couple ways you can go. You can take their comments and know in your heart in your head that they're incorrect, and that those people don't really know what they're talking about. And they are saying these things out of love, and you're gonna let it roll off your back like feathers of a duck. If they do get in your head, you have the control to go home and do your research and just double check that you do know what you're talking about. Those people don't know what they're talking about. You can have a conversation to in in trying to educate them and say, you know, I think you're trying to share the stuff out of love. I would like to share with you what some actual current research says. And that hopefully that'll help you understand why I'm trying for a VBAC. This is really important to me, and I'm confident in this decision. Or you can let them know your comments are unhelpful. You can or you don't have to point out that they are correct. They're incorrect. So you could say something like, you're not quoting the most current information in it's starting to get in my head. I'm confident in my decision. And so your comments are really unhelpful. It would be helpful to me more helpful to me going forward if we didn't talk about this or if when I shared my opinions you didn't try and correct me setting the boundary with people of what's helpful and not helpful is really crucial. For people who are not okay with confrontation, it may be better to do it during text message or over email, you could write a sticky note. You know, a really, really non confrontational way, although it brings another person is you could have a co worker, talk to the person who's overstepping boundaries and just say like, look, you're making her very uncomfortable. It does mean that that other person may come to you and say like, Hey, so and so told me, You're feeling uncomfortable. So you may not get out of the confrontation. But there you've got to set a boundary if it's starting to get into your head. And then for your mom. Yeah, Trisha, you know that, like, stop taking crap from your mom, what's going on there? You got to tell her like, Mom, it's unhelpful. Like, you're scaring me, you're making me worry for no reason. Or I do think too, if you're going to tell people how they're unhelpful. You should give them options of how they can be helpful because a lot of people say things out of love. So you can say, Mom, it makes me very worried when you say crap. Like, are you breathing? Of course, I'm breathing mom, you could check in and say, Hey, how are you feeling? Honey? Hey, checking in on you in the baby. Why don't you pick up the phone? And if you're worried about me breathing, listen to me speak mom. There are ways that you can say that aren't going to give me anxiety. But right now, the way that you're doing it is really, it's it's actually hurting me in the baby. It's giving me high cortisol. I'm not sleeping well. And I haven't been eating because you're making me so anxious. Right? Let them know, I think it's fine to set those boundaries again, so hard. It's hard set boundaries. Look, no one here is claiming that it's easy. But we all do agree that it's it's essential. I mean, you just have to, why is it so hard for people to learn there to learn boundaries? Oh, my gosh, it's so many people struggle with it so much. What's so why is it so hard? I have I'm asking genuinely, like, I'm not saying that in a in a Get your shit together kind of way. And like it's truly really hard.

Oh, yeah. Hey, I just had a shaky voice, hypothetically, talking to a provider that yanked a pen and pad out of my course. This is hard.

Cynthia, what do people do to learn boundaries?

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about it and thinking about in all the scenarios, you can feel that way on a date with somebody as much as you can feel it with a professional. As much as you can feel it with people close to you, I find it easiest to discuss with the people close to me, because I trust them. And I know, I feel safe in the relationship, I can have any conversation with my mom, or my husband or my close friends about something. And I think in other scenarios, it is difficult. And I am trying to ask myself why? I don't know if we're afraid of the response that could come. And if we're unprepared for the response, if someone might get belligerent. I don't know if we're afraid of losing the relationship, when really it's the only path to having a functioning relationship. I don't know why it's hard. But I know that women in general, are raised to be polite, we're raised to be accommodating, we're raised to be sweet in many subcultures of this country, particularly sweet. I don't know. But I do believe we're raised to get along.

I think you're absolutely right. I mean, basically, if you stand up for yourself, you might be called a bitch, or you're called aggressive at work instead of instead of something more positive.

Oh, we are taught to be submissive, right? And we see that play out in medicine too. How many times is there a nurse that's witnessing abusive care go on, but because of her role, or because of the the gender of the provider, and sometimes it is women on women, right? Sometimes it's truly the role that hierarchy, they don't feel like they can speak up. Or maybe this unit is notorious for firing nurses that speak up. Maybe this unit is notorious for firing any nurse who speaks up against this particular provider, because this particular provider gives so much money or has a certain reputation or was recruited for X, Y and Z. You see this taught submission, play out in medicine in it to impact patient care, patient safety, patient experience, all of it

100% True, that nurses feel they don't really report to doctors, right, but they're in that role of having to support them. I saw a documentary once on, on plane malfunctions. And it was interesting because safety increases exponentially after every single crash because they learned so much from every individual crash. And one enormous learning that happened after one particular crash was the co pilot could see something wrong, but there was always a culture between co pilots and pilots that the co pilot was submissive and wasn't an equal and wasn't to speak up. And everything changed in the training in aviation after that, that CO pilots had a much more powerful role to speak up, there were more processes for doing so. And yeah, you know, that analogy can be applied to so many things, and this is one of them. But I think that one major improvement that this industry needs is nurses need to feel more empowered, we have so many nurses following our Instagram page, they're so valuable, they have so much like wisdom and insight and opinions. And they could be right in on this conversation with us. But they're put into this scenario. I had a client in my last class, she just had her baby who was a nurse, and obstetrics nurse and I covered newborn interventions in one class. And I can't remember what it was, oh, after class, she stayed on the line with me. And she said, Cynthia, I can't tell you how many I thought we were talking about glucose, I don't remember. But she said she was. She was feeling all these emotions that she had suppressed for years and her career. And she said, Cynthia, I have given that shot. I don't know how many hundreds of times and every time I open up the package, it says not to be administered to anyone under the age of one. And she's giving it to newborns. And she was recognizing in her own career, that she even fell into this. Because what do you do? How does a nurse say? All the doctors are giving me bad advice here? Where does she go? And I don't think there are procedures for that. So even they see everything. They're so valuable, and they're there to take care of people. And there's this little weird ego dynamic where they can't speak up. So anyway, it gets us into so many other parts of what's happening in maternity care.

It's very hard to fight hospital protocol. If you fight it, your job is potentially at risk from out it's hard to fight it. You can't find it from the inside or the outside. It's almost impenetrable.

But the best thing you said he that I just felt was was so important for everyone to hear when Trisha was saying, what do we do when we don't have a lot of provider options. So many women who listened to this podcast don't and we love talking about providers, and it's so hard for them because they don't have a lot of options. But when you said when you're so clear on your boundaries, that you're going to take care of yourself, no matter where you go. That's very important to believe and to own. I give out affirmations to everyone who takes my class and one of the ones that people love the most because they read them at the end of class they pick one of the little packet they have. One of them is just simply I have everything I need. And it's very important to go through pregnancy and birth and motherhood trusting I have myself therefore I have everything I need.

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Oh that'd be so much fun to see. We also have been planning a trip up to Boston though Trisha we need to do that. We have a lot of people up there we need to we do we need to do like a tour.

I don't know spring. Boston in the spring will be nice.